Here’s my suggestion, from a comment I posted at the Times:
America lost last night. The entire world saw we have a man who is incapable of acting like an adult let alone as president. I agree further debate will be pointless. However, if Biden refuses to debate Trump again, Trump and his base will claim he lost and is afraid to face him again. Biden must insist on three things as a condition for any further debates. 1) Trump must release his taxes. 2) Trump must agree to accept the election results. 3) Trump must condemn right wing militias and white supremacists, and call on them to stand down. He must do all of this again at the start of any further debate. Further, any moderators must insist he follow the rules he agreed to, and shut off his mike when he won’t. Trump will never agree to any of this, of course. That ends the debates without giving Trump anything to brag or complain about - except he will regardless. He cannot help himself. But we can.
I think what is most jarring has nothing to do with Trump, other than the fact he's the perfect mirror of some very dark twisted spaces in America's id.
I tried to watch but for the sake of my TV, I left the room and abandoned my poor wife too suffer alone. We may just not make it to Nov 3. If this is how he is willing to act, in such desperation to stay out of prison on live TV to millions voters, think of what he's doing in private. Putin and XI are his role models and 200k dead, whether by torture or disease, in a modern Western democracy at the hands of your government led by Trump is horrific. The DoJ, McConnell and GOP have much to answer for when/if this ever ends
Thank you for a great piece that gets to the heart of the matter. As I watched this train wreck, conducted by the president, I could hear his “debate prep” at work. I heard buzz words repeated over and over as a means to gen up his base. I witnessed a man wholly ill-prepared to speak on important issues such as climate change because his prep clearly didn’t care enough about it to cover it. I watched Joe Biden, who undoubtedly knew it would be bad, turn to the camera to at least acknowledge he knew we were watching as a country, and that he was sorry we had to be subjected to this.
There was not a single doubt in my mind that Trump would not be prepared and he’d figure out a way to extend his rallies at a national debate. I just didn’t realize that it would be EXACTLY that. If you tuned in, you were subjected to his lies, hyperbole, derision, and even a call out to the racist part of his base to “stand back and stand by.” We deserve better. And if you then read most of the national headlines meant to chronicle the event for the fortunate ones who missed it, you initially saw a beltway media learn almost nothing between 2016 and 2020, which is startling and demoralizing at the same time. We again, need something better.
With just over 30 days until the election, it would be a fool’s errand to look to the debates to learn anything new about the candidates’ policies or positions. We knew going into the first one, based on the debates of 2016 and Trump’s lack of any semblance of growth and astonishing ineptitude and corruption of the last four years, that tonight would be the only thing he could make it, the farce of all farces. When you have a clown driving the car, it’s foolish to think you’ll end up anywhere else other than at the circus. Thank you for pointing this out unapologetically.
Nicolle Wallace asked the $750 question last night: Why did Trump take this strategy? He knew it wouldn’t gain him any new voters, even though he’s trailing in the polls by a lot, and in fact, it probably cost him voters who might have otherwise stuck with him. It was a stupid strategy. So, why did he do it?
That presumes that he had a rational strategy. Trump really believes the power of his personality is all he needs to win everyone over. He is more of a magical thinker than my 5 year old granddaughter.
I hope the rest of the world wasn't watching. Unfortunately despite numerous calls to cancel the debates, they will go on.
The first debate revealed the true strategy: run against the legitimacy of voting, attack the results, count on white supremist post-election chaos and steal the election. There is no other strategy; he knows he can't win. Televising that strategy two more times is obscene.
If I am correct, and debates 2 and 3 are on, the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) has the power, and responsibility, to curb the voting fraud propaganda. CPD’s states its primary purpose is to sponsor and produce the quadrennial general election debates and to undertake research and educational activities relating to the debates. CBD site asks media inquires be directed to the Commission on Presidential Debates at media@debates.org or by phone at (202) 872-1020. Other sites indicate a mailing address of 1200 New Hampshire Avenue N.W., Suite 445, Wash. D.C. 20036, fax 202-783-5923.
I can't believe I am writing that we have to address this, but his intentions are now ever clearer. Add this to the long list of "things we have to push for," these days: a free and fair election in the US.
I've already been living in a constant state of risen gorge after quite possibly having watched the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen that was meant to be serious. The white supremacist call-to-action was the final nail in that coffin. I agree that there is no need for any more of these horrors. It was a disgrace to the US.
One other thing: If Chris Wallace thought that this would give him extra gravitas to go for the 60 Minutes gig on CBS, he miscalculated. He looked pitiable sitting there. A sad deflated man who lost control of that disaster in the first ten minutes of it and never was able to do a damned thing. Maybe the Commission tied his hands. Maybe Fox News did. Maybe he just imagined a different sort of garbage program. Whatever happened, Wallace looked pathetic.
Last night was mind boggling, but it also showed every viewer exactly who Trump is--An abusive, violent, immoral psychopath. As far as Wallace goes--he could not have predicted that it would go this far off the rails. I am not sure any moderator could have controlled it without a mute button or ejector seat.
The debates have steadily degenerated over the years. Candidates are now expected to interrupt each other, and vacuous, ratings focused pundits get to declare the "winner". End them permanently. Wipe the slate clean for awhile, at least.
The NY Times has an article up telling us who won the debate by telling us who their writers think won the debate. Thankfully all but one right winger called it for Biden but that doesn’t excuse the Times’s arrogance. The apparently think they are the true voice of the American people. Only the public can say who won the debate — make that only the public should say who won the debate.
The media’s focus on Gore’s sighs after the first Gore-Bush debate was the only explanation for the shift in public’s judgment of who had won from early polls showing Gore the clear winner to polls later in the week showing that people now believed Bush had won.
There is another hypothesis being circulated, and I include an abridged version here:
"Joe Biden is a stutterer. Like many others, he has overcome the disability by understanding it and exercising extraordinary perseverance and discipline. If you know and love a stutterer and you watched the presidential debate last night, within minutes it became obvious what was going on. Abusive tone of voice, rapid fire interruptions, zigzagging change of topic, personal insult and humiliation, and family pain are all tripwires that scramble a stutterer's ability to speak. There was nothing unplanned or spontaneous in the President's strategy. The bastards did not prep him to attack Joe. They prepped him to attack Joe's disability hoping that by triggering his stuttering they might deceive an audience unfamiliar with the disability into thinking that Joe was stupid, weak, uncertain, confused, or lost to dementia.
The stutterer that I love taught me early on that he did not so much need my protection. He fought back by owning and integrating his disability into who he is. He learned how to stand his ground as master of perseverance, knowledge, and empathy. Without his example, I would not have recognized the game that was being played last night. I would not have been able to recognize the subtle but intense struggle against the disability that Joe was winning at the same time he was struggling to advance his positions on the issues in the midst of a rhetorical shit storm."
I completely agree, cancel the final two debates. It was like watching a caged Orangoutang throwing his shit all over the place. For me the moment Trump would not condemn white supremacists and specifically signaling to the Proud Boys to stand by was a downright call to terrorists by an American president. Are you kidding me? That's okay in a debate? It should have been stopped right there. And as for both sides do it, it was Trump completely out of control. Biden was focused and managed to do the best he could to stay on topic while trying to ignore the petulant toddler whose parents, in this case Chris Wallace, could not control. I do give Wallace some credit for finally letting Trump have it but that smack down should have happened the first time the president interrupted. And that contrived harping on Hunter Biden fell flat on its face. Did anyone actually care about that? Biden's passionate response about Hunter's battle with drugs defused the one talking point that I'm sure stooges Giuliani and Christie instructed the president to keep bringing up. I give Biden credit for not taking the low road. He could have easily gone after Trump's kids and their comments about their money that came from Russia. Look, it was a complete debacle because of Trump's behavior. There is no reason to repeat this fiasco, especially two more times.
I think Joy Reid said this post-debate: Chris Wallace acted as if he was a battered housewife, trying to mitigate the beating by soothing the batterer. Even after the debacle last night, I'm still not sure if America knows this man is a psychopath.
Jennifer Rubin just posted this criticism of the media’s making their evaluations of the debate neutral:
“...we are told “the debate” was a dumpster fire, “the debate” was a low point in American politics, “the debate” was incoherent. The worst appearance by a U.S. president in history is magically transformed into a non-personified event — the debate itself. Why do so many headline writers, anchors and pundits fall into this trap?
This poor sense of “balance” still afflicts too many journalists, who become nervous that by reporting what is plain to see, they’re taking “sides.” But the only side they would be taking is that of truth....”
Do you remember what she was like when Bush was president? I have a hard time believing it’s the same person. Back then she was a real hard liner and neocon and insulting to those she disagreed with. I hope this change is permanent — not that I expect her to become a bleeding heart liberal but I am fine with an objective fact-based analyst.
I thought his analysis of the problem with the debate commission’s view of the moderator being just a facilitator was an important point. However there is a difference between the way that traditional debate is judged vs the way a political debate is judged. In a traditional debate the judgement is on the substance, on how well each side makes its argument. A political debate is judged on much more than that. A candidate comes into a debate knowing they need to reassure voters about his or her perceived weaknesses even if those weaknesses have nothing to do with issues of substance.
Biden has been criticized from both the right and left for not being tough and/or quick-thinking so he almost certainly came into last night’s debate with disproving that perception as a major goal. As much as I hate interruptions, Biden might have been using that as a deliberate strategy to prove he can get tough and also that he can think and speak quickly and aggressively. In a formal debate you would have points deducted for behaving like that but in a political debate it may help you win in the eyes of voters.
The media is another factor that can influence whether candidates are seen as winning. If they decide to jump on something trivial you did or didn’t do — the media can turn that into a damaging “gotcha” moment. There is convincing evidence that the media can change the public’s perception of a debate by doing that kind of thing. So if candidates really want to win a debate they need to use strategies, no matter how contrived or unrelated to issues of substance, to counter the preconceived notions the media and the public may have about them. None of this is a consideration when judging a traditional debate.
If we want candidates to focus on questions of substances, not just performance art, we need to use another format.
But this was not a normal debate. It wasn't a normal anything. And the fact that the media's expected that this forum would be "normal" and that a moderator could impose normal rules and pundits could evaluate success or failure by citing "normal" behaviors speaks volumes about how disconnected from reality our media are.
True but even in normal times political debates are graded on more than just the answers to questions about policy. Gore was lambasted for his demeanor not his competence or positions on issues. I loved watching my daughter’s debate competitions but the aims and the judging were definitely different than that for a political debate for good reasons and stupid ones.
I hope Biden doesn't show up for the next debate, why 45 will act the same way or worse. Let him have the stage all to himself, that's what he wants. Biden is so much better then that piece of crap who calls himself president. Why debate has nothing but hate coming out of his mouth.
Here’s my suggestion, from a comment I posted at the Times:
America lost last night. The entire world saw we have a man who is incapable of acting like an adult let alone as president. I agree further debate will be pointless. However, if Biden refuses to debate Trump again, Trump and his base will claim he lost and is afraid to face him again. Biden must insist on three things as a condition for any further debates. 1) Trump must release his taxes. 2) Trump must agree to accept the election results. 3) Trump must condemn right wing militias and white supremacists, and call on them to stand down. He must do all of this again at the start of any further debate. Further, any moderators must insist he follow the rules he agreed to, and shut off his mike when he won’t. Trump will never agree to any of this, of course. That ends the debates without giving Trump anything to brag or complain about - except he will regardless. He cannot help himself. But we can.
yep, let’s never forgot how this looks on the world stage. totally humiliating
I think what is most jarring has nothing to do with Trump, other than the fact he's the perfect mirror of some very dark twisted spaces in America's id.
The base will claim Old Joe’s the loser no matter what. But Trump fully unhinged sends a much clearer message than the base’s bleating does.
I tried to watch but for the sake of my TV, I left the room and abandoned my poor wife too suffer alone. We may just not make it to Nov 3. If this is how he is willing to act, in such desperation to stay out of prison on live TV to millions voters, think of what he's doing in private. Putin and XI are his role models and 200k dead, whether by torture or disease, in a modern Western democracy at the hands of your government led by Trump is horrific. The DoJ, McConnell and GOP have much to answer for when/if this ever ends
if it weren’t my job I would have def turned it off after 15 mins
Thank you for a great piece that gets to the heart of the matter. As I watched this train wreck, conducted by the president, I could hear his “debate prep” at work. I heard buzz words repeated over and over as a means to gen up his base. I witnessed a man wholly ill-prepared to speak on important issues such as climate change because his prep clearly didn’t care enough about it to cover it. I watched Joe Biden, who undoubtedly knew it would be bad, turn to the camera to at least acknowledge he knew we were watching as a country, and that he was sorry we had to be subjected to this.
There was not a single doubt in my mind that Trump would not be prepared and he’d figure out a way to extend his rallies at a national debate. I just didn’t realize that it would be EXACTLY that. If you tuned in, you were subjected to his lies, hyperbole, derision, and even a call out to the racist part of his base to “stand back and stand by.” We deserve better. And if you then read most of the national headlines meant to chronicle the event for the fortunate ones who missed it, you initially saw a beltway media learn almost nothing between 2016 and 2020, which is startling and demoralizing at the same time. We again, need something better.
With just over 30 days until the election, it would be a fool’s errand to look to the debates to learn anything new about the candidates’ policies or positions. We knew going into the first one, based on the debates of 2016 and Trump’s lack of any semblance of growth and astonishing ineptitude and corruption of the last four years, that tonight would be the only thing he could make it, the farce of all farces. When you have a clown driving the car, it’s foolish to think you’ll end up anywhere else other than at the circus. Thank you for pointing this out unapologetically.
incredibly he’s a worse “debater” today than in 20216
Yes, why is that, do you think?
Nicolle Wallace asked the $750 question last night: Why did Trump take this strategy? He knew it wouldn’t gain him any new voters, even though he’s trailing in the polls by a lot, and in fact, it probably cost him voters who might have otherwise stuck with him. It was a stupid strategy. So, why did he do it?
That presumes that he had a rational strategy. Trump really believes the power of his personality is all he needs to win everyone over. He is more of a magical thinker than my 5 year old granddaughter.
I hope the rest of the world wasn't watching. Unfortunately despite numerous calls to cancel the debates, they will go on.
The first debate revealed the true strategy: run against the legitimacy of voting, attack the results, count on white supremist post-election chaos and steal the election. There is no other strategy; he knows he can't win. Televising that strategy two more times is obscene.
If I am correct, and debates 2 and 3 are on, the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) has the power, and responsibility, to curb the voting fraud propaganda. CPD’s states its primary purpose is to sponsor and produce the quadrennial general election debates and to undertake research and educational activities relating to the debates. CBD site asks media inquires be directed to the Commission on Presidential Debates at media@debates.org or by phone at (202) 872-1020. Other sites indicate a mailing address of 1200 New Hampshire Avenue N.W., Suite 445, Wash. D.C. 20036, fax 202-783-5923.
I can't believe I am writing that we have to address this, but his intentions are now ever clearer. Add this to the long list of "things we have to push for," these days: a free and fair election in the US.
Headlines should be screaming "No Sniffles from Trump at Debate"
I've already been living in a constant state of risen gorge after quite possibly having watched the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen that was meant to be serious. The white supremacist call-to-action was the final nail in that coffin. I agree that there is no need for any more of these horrors. It was a disgrace to the US.
One other thing: If Chris Wallace thought that this would give him extra gravitas to go for the 60 Minutes gig on CBS, he miscalculated. He looked pitiable sitting there. A sad deflated man who lost control of that disaster in the first ten minutes of it and never was able to do a damned thing. Maybe the Commission tied his hands. Maybe Fox News did. Maybe he just imagined a different sort of garbage program. Whatever happened, Wallace looked pathetic.
“ the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen that was meant to be serious.” wee said
He is pathetic. But he can take comfort in knowing he is not alone in the Propatainment Complex.
Last night was mind boggling, but it also showed every viewer exactly who Trump is--An abusive, violent, immoral psychopath. As far as Wallace goes--he could not have predicted that it would go this far off the rails. I am not sure any moderator could have controlled it without a mute button or ejector seat.
Mute button is needed—but Debate Commission is afraid of Trump
I think more afraid of GOP. One way or another Trump is gone
The debates have steadily degenerated over the years. Candidates are now expected to interrupt each other, and vacuous, ratings focused pundits get to declare the "winner". End them permanently. Wipe the slate clean for awhile, at least.
Completely agree about slow decline of the debates
The NY Times has an article up telling us who won the debate by telling us who their writers think won the debate. Thankfully all but one right winger called it for Biden but that doesn’t excuse the Times’s arrogance. The apparently think they are the true voice of the American people. Only the public can say who won the debate — make that only the public should say who won the debate.
The media’s focus on Gore’s sighs after the first Gore-Bush debate was the only explanation for the shift in public’s judgment of who had won from early polls showing Gore the clear winner to polls later in the week showing that people now believed Bush had won.
I think the days of Beltway press announcing the winners/losers are over....butt the still love to play that game
The two main takeaways from this debate for me were: Trump won’t peacefully accept defeat and he’s calling on his right-wing goons to harm people.
Just for that alone, he shouldn’t be allowed on any ballot for the rest of his life, but alas.
he def advertised his authoritarian ways last night !
There is another hypothesis being circulated, and I include an abridged version here:
"Joe Biden is a stutterer. Like many others, he has overcome the disability by understanding it and exercising extraordinary perseverance and discipline. If you know and love a stutterer and you watched the presidential debate last night, within minutes it became obvious what was going on. Abusive tone of voice, rapid fire interruptions, zigzagging change of topic, personal insult and humiliation, and family pain are all tripwires that scramble a stutterer's ability to speak. There was nothing unplanned or spontaneous in the President's strategy. The bastards did not prep him to attack Joe. They prepped him to attack Joe's disability hoping that by triggering his stuttering they might deceive an audience unfamiliar with the disability into thinking that Joe was stupid, weak, uncertain, confused, or lost to dementia.
The stutterer that I love taught me early on that he did not so much need my protection. He fought back by owning and integrating his disability into who he is. He learned how to stand his ground as master of perseverance, knowledge, and empathy. Without his example, I would not have recognized the game that was being played last night. I would not have been able to recognize the subtle but intense struggle against the disability that Joe was winning at the same time he was struggling to advance his positions on the issues in the midst of a rhetorical shit storm."
Wow. Very powerful analysis. I'm glad you shared this. Thank you.
I completely agree, cancel the final two debates. It was like watching a caged Orangoutang throwing his shit all over the place. For me the moment Trump would not condemn white supremacists and specifically signaling to the Proud Boys to stand by was a downright call to terrorists by an American president. Are you kidding me? That's okay in a debate? It should have been stopped right there. And as for both sides do it, it was Trump completely out of control. Biden was focused and managed to do the best he could to stay on topic while trying to ignore the petulant toddler whose parents, in this case Chris Wallace, could not control. I do give Wallace some credit for finally letting Trump have it but that smack down should have happened the first time the president interrupted. And that contrived harping on Hunter Biden fell flat on its face. Did anyone actually care about that? Biden's passionate response about Hunter's battle with drugs defused the one talking point that I'm sure stooges Giuliani and Christie instructed the president to keep bringing up. I give Biden credit for not taking the low road. He could have easily gone after Trump's kids and their comments about their money that came from Russia. Look, it was a complete debacle because of Trump's behavior. There is no reason to repeat this fiasco, especially two more times.
Agreed, on both your political assessment and your song choice.
Having said that, I am really looking forward to watching Kamala Harris kick Pence’s ass on the debate stage next week. That one will be fun.
I think Joy Reid said this post-debate: Chris Wallace acted as if he was a battered housewife, trying to mitigate the beating by soothing the batterer. Even after the debacle last night, I'm still not sure if America knows this man is a psychopath.
Great analysis, Eric. Not sure if you saw this opinion piece on CNN.com by a debate professional — spot-on for the most part.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/30/opinions/why-the-debate-went-terribly-wrong-graham/index.html
thanks! and good CNN piece. what’s so maddening is all of this was so predictable
Jennifer Rubin just posted this criticism of the media’s making their evaluations of the debate neutral:
“...we are told “the debate” was a dumpster fire, “the debate” was a low point in American politics, “the debate” was incoherent. The worst appearance by a U.S. president in history is magically transformed into a non-personified event — the debate itself. Why do so many headline writers, anchors and pundits fall into this trap?
This poor sense of “balance” still afflicts too many journalists, who become nervous that by reporting what is plain to see, they’re taking “sides.” But the only side they would be taking is that of truth....”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/30/media-keeps-making-these-cringeworthy-mistakes/
Amen to that!
I LOVE her. She does not mince words and is not afraid to tell the truth about Republicans.
Do you remember what she was like when Bush was president? I have a hard time believing it’s the same person. Back then she was a real hard liner and neocon and insulting to those she disagreed with. I hope this change is permanent — not that I expect her to become a bleeding heart liberal but I am fine with an objective fact-based analyst.
Yes I do. I hope she keeps doing what she's doing now.
I thought his analysis of the problem with the debate commission’s view of the moderator being just a facilitator was an important point. However there is a difference between the way that traditional debate is judged vs the way a political debate is judged. In a traditional debate the judgement is on the substance, on how well each side makes its argument. A political debate is judged on much more than that. A candidate comes into a debate knowing they need to reassure voters about his or her perceived weaknesses even if those weaknesses have nothing to do with issues of substance.
Biden has been criticized from both the right and left for not being tough and/or quick-thinking so he almost certainly came into last night’s debate with disproving that perception as a major goal. As much as I hate interruptions, Biden might have been using that as a deliberate strategy to prove he can get tough and also that he can think and speak quickly and aggressively. In a formal debate you would have points deducted for behaving like that but in a political debate it may help you win in the eyes of voters.
The media is another factor that can influence whether candidates are seen as winning. If they decide to jump on something trivial you did or didn’t do — the media can turn that into a damaging “gotcha” moment. There is convincing evidence that the media can change the public’s perception of a debate by doing that kind of thing. So if candidates really want to win a debate they need to use strategies, no matter how contrived or unrelated to issues of substance, to counter the preconceived notions the media and the public may have about them. None of this is a consideration when judging a traditional debate.
If we want candidates to focus on questions of substances, not just performance art, we need to use another format.
But this was not a normal debate. It wasn't a normal anything. And the fact that the media's expected that this forum would be "normal" and that a moderator could impose normal rules and pundits could evaluate success or failure by citing "normal" behaviors speaks volumes about how disconnected from reality our media are.
True but even in normal times political debates are graded on more than just the answers to questions about policy. Gore was lambasted for his demeanor not his competence or positions on issues. I loved watching my daughter’s debate competitions but the aims and the judging were definitely different than that for a political debate for good reasons and stupid ones.
Margaret Carlson published a doozy in the Daily Beast this morning.
I hope Biden doesn't show up for the next debate, why 45 will act the same way or worse. Let him have the stage all to himself, that's what he wants. Biden is so much better then that piece of crap who calls himself president. Why debate has nothing but hate coming out of his mouth.